Document 10
CASE #900-1500-93 TAPE A-190 INTERVIEW
#1264
LEGEND:
Q: Tpr. J. W. Fleming
A: Inmate Aaron Jefferson *
?'
\
Q: Today's date is June 23, 1994. It is 3:56 in the afternoon. I'm
Trooper J. W. Fleming of the Ohio State Highway Patrol. We're at the
Mansfield Correctional Facility Segregation Area. In the room with me
is AARON JEFFERSON, inmate #230-397. Is that right Aaron?
A: Yes.
Q: You go by Aaron?
A: I go by A.J.
Q: A.J.?
A: A.J. but my Muslim name is Najeem.
Q: Your what name?
A: Muslim name. It's Najeem.
Q: Can you spell that?
A: Na-jeem.
Q: Okay. I received a kite which is an institutional informational
letter. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: From you, dated June**22nd, 1994. I got that this morning. And you
sent it to me and in that you're saying, "I would like to speak with
you about the riot at S.O.C.F.".
A: Yes.
Q: You wrote this yourself?
A: Yes.
Q: Was did anybody coerce you into writing this?
A: No.
Q: "What I'm saying, there were a few murders done that I done and I
would like to speak with you about them. Thanks." And then you signed
it, Mr. Aaron Jefferson.
A: Yes.
Q: That's you that wrote that?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Now before we get started, I asked you just a couple
questions earlier before I turned the tape on as far as prior
convictions and you're spending 4-15 for robbery from Cuyahoga County.
A: Yes.
Q: And you've been in the prison system on that particular charge
since 1990.
A: Yes.
Q: And prior to that you had an auto theft where you spent a year and
a half at the Old O.S.R.
A: Yes.
Q: You had mentioned something about your attorney earlier when I
asked you about coming down here and talking to me. Would you like to
explain why you do not wish your attorney present or you do wish to
have your attorney present the appointed attorney?
A: Well, at this time I would like him to be here, right? But I feel
this has to be resolved and truthfully I don't have the time to be
waiting on him to come down here or get down here when he wants to get
down here. I need him like right now, you know A.S.A.P.^ Since that
can't be done, then I'll deal with it right now as go on and you know
sometime in the near future, you know, we get him...
Q: Well, before we go any farther, we are bound by certain rules also.
And for you to use the excuse, and I say "excuse", that may not be an
excuse but for you to use the excuse that yes yo\i would like to
have your attorney here before questions,* especially since you're
going to admit to some murders and you say you can't get him down here
A.S.A.P., I don't know how good or how well that's going to be taken
by people later on. Because, yeah, we could probably get an attorney
here. And if you want to talk with an attorney present, you state that
now and we'll not go any farther. We will get an attorney here for
you.
A: No, I no.
Q: You don't want one?
A: No. I deal with that later on.
Q: What do you mean, "You'll deal with it later on"?
A: I'm saying when it's time for me to really have one, then
I'll have one. I don't think I need him here right now for what I have
to say.
Q: Okay, so I'm going to advise you of your rights.
A: Uh, huh.
Q: Do you understand you have the right to remain silent?
A: Yes.
Q: Anything you say can be used in court?
A: Yes.
Q: So if you don't want to tell me something, I can't dig it out of
you, so if you want to continue talking about whatever then that's
whatever you tell me is going to be used in court.
Yes.
You understand that?
Yes.
You have the right to a lawyer which, again, you said that right now
you want to talk without a lawyer?
Yes.
There was one appointed to you by early on after the riot, is that
correct?
Yes.
Do you know h^is name?
Clayton P. Olstein (phonetic).
Have you had correspondence with him?
At the early stage, yeah.
Q: When's the last you've talked to him?
A: (Long pause).
Q: Probably, correspondence wise or in person?
A: I spoke to him one time in person. That was the last time I seen
him. And correspondence was...
Q: When was that in person?
A: Maybe uh, in person was I'd give or take 7-8 months ago.
Q: You haven't talked to him for 7-8 months?
A: Yes.
Q: In person?
A: In person or by correspondence.
Q: Okay. Now once we've started into this interview, if you want to
stop all you need to do is say, "That's it. I'm done until I talk to
my attorney". And that will be the end of the interview.
A: Uh, huh.
Q: Do you understand all the rights?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay, so you do want to talk to me?
A: Yes.
, Q: Okay. You indicated also that you were a, uh, B.G.D. member.
A: Yes.
Q: And your rank, if there was such, or your position in the B.G.D.
was more of an enforcer...we have an interview...
Another Voice: Tpr. Fleming, (inaudible) on the phone. What's that
number there?
Q: Okay, I'm going^to shut this off for a second. (TAPE TURNED OFF).
Okay, we're back on tape. We were off for about 2-3 minutes for an
interruption, phone call. Now you asked me a question while we were
off tape and what was that again?
A: I was asking that once this is - once we've done with
discussions and statements and whatever, what do you do with it
where do you go with it?
Q: Where I go with it is to the prosecutor, uh, Mark Piepmeier who is
handling the case at S.O.C.F. or one of his assistants, Bill Breyer
one of those particular people down there. This is presented to him.
He gets the whole thing. He makes the decisions if there's any
decisions to be made. So, are you asking for anything? Do you want
anything?
A: As I said before, before the tape was played that all I'm asking is
that on these particular cases that I'm going to talk about that the
guys that's being charged with them, you know what I'm saying, be left
alone because they didn't do it. See what I'm saying?
Q: What you're trying to tell me is there are certain people that are
charged with incidents, crimes, that occurred at S.O.C.F. that you
know for a fact were not involved in it...
A: Yes. Yes.
Q: And your reason for coming forward to us now is to clear their
name?
A: Yes. I mean, I I could have just sat on back and just
let it go, right? I could have went on sat back and let it go and
whoever was charged would be charged and whatever happened would have
happened and that would have been it. I could have did it that way.
But, no, that's not the type of individual I am, right? You know what
I'm saying? I did it and I don't have no problem admitting that I did
it, right? I guess if I didn't like the person or you know what I'm
saying, didn't care, yeah, I could have said "Okay, yeah, well you
know, oh man I'm so sorry for you" and just walked on about my
business.
Q: How much education have you had?
A: All the way through the 12th.
Q: You graduated high school?
A: Nope. *
Q: You did not graduate but you went through high school?
A: Yeah, I went through high school.
Q: Okay, you under any medication now?
A: No.
Q: So you're doing this of your own free will and understand what
you're telling us?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay, as I mentioned before you're saying "a few murders" and there
were a few down there, and you're going to admit from what your kite
says, you're going to admit to being involved in, participating,
ordering, whatever the case might be and what I'd like you to do is to
just start wherever you want to start you can make it as brief,
you can make it as detailed but you continue and whichever one you
start with, tell me everything you want to tell me about that one
before you go on to the next one, okay?
A: Okay, well one I'm going to start with a guy I didn't know
personally, like I say I'd just come out to population a week before
the riot situation at S.O.C.F. occurred so me knowing him personally,
no. But it was a guy named Darrell Depina. Darrell Depina. Uh, the
best way I can describe this guy is 1) I knew he worked in C corridor
where the Captain's office was and around where the commissary. He was
a porter, he was sweeping and mopping in that corridor. Every now and
then sometimes you see him with a a like a wild looking beard,
scraggly looking beard.
Q: Okay, we know who Darrell Depina is. Do you want to admit to that
particular murder? And how it happened?
A: I'm going to
Q: Or do you want to lead up to it with something elseT]>
A: I'm Darrell Depina. It occurred, it took place in L-6, cell 60.
Q: L-6, 60?
A: Yes. Uh, I heard like I said, I heard through the grape vine that
he was a snitch, institution police or whatever you like to call it.
And, uh, they said that, uh, he had to go. We was told that he had to
go.
Q: Now who said that?
A: I just heard. I ain't going to say who said it. I heard that he had
to go.
Q: Let me ask you one question before we go any further. Have you been
charged with anything out of the Lucasville riot as yet?
A: Well, not yet.
Q: Okay, you've not yet been served with any indictments?
A: No, not yet.
Q: You say, "not yet".
A: Not yet.
Q: Okay. Tell us about Darrell Depina.
A: Okay, he was doing, like I say in L-6, cell 60, you know
what I'm saying? I was told that he was a snitch, you know what I'm
saying? A tattle-tailer, he liked to talk to much to the wrong people.
So I went in there...
Q: Were you alone?
A: Yeah. By myself. Went in there and I just took care of my business,
you know what I'm saying? I ain't going to go too far into detail as
how I did it.
Q: I want you to go into detail.
A: I went in there, I had a (inaudible) - institution knife, a shank.
An institutional knife.
Q: What was it made of?
A: Metal.
Q: Okay, what did it look like?
A: It was I got these handcuffs ,on so I can't really tell you.
Q: Approximately how big?
A: I'd say, I'd say about that big.
Q: And you're measuring out at least 12 inches.
A: I'm saying that's about 12 inches I'd give or take it was a
pretty *long piece of steel. I didn't make it.
Q: Was it flat?
A: It was, it was like maybe about that thick?
Q: And you're showing me about a quarter of an inch thick.
Q: Which shoulder did you get?
A: It would be the left because it was coming L 60, cell 60
standing, it would be left.
Q: Now where was Darrell Depina when you went in his cell?
A: It was about about four feet from^standing from the window.
Q: Was he facing you?
A: No, not he wasn't facing me, he was facing the bed. He
was in the process of doing some packing or doing something. He had a
lot of stuff on the bed that I know...
Q: He was standing there?
A: Yeah, he was standing taking care of whatever he was doing.
Q: Okay, so you went in with the ball bat...
A: Yeah, went in with the ball bat cause the door was already open.
Q: Okay, hit him he went down...
A: Hit him, swung at his head, he duckted [sic] I missed the head, I
did miss the head. I got the shoulder somewhat and he went down under
the bed.
Q: Okay, then what happened?
A: Then what I did I grabbed the bed, tilted the bed straight up,
tilted the bed straight up from the end straight up and pushed it
towards the wall.
Q: So you put it on it's end?
A: Yeah, put it on it's end standing it up straight up. I went at
him and started stabbing him.
Q: Now where did you stab*him?
A: I stabbed him in the mid-section.
Q: In the back, or in the front?
A: Mid-section right here.
Q: In the front.
A: I believe I got him a couple times in the chest, if I ain't
mistaken I believe I did get him in the chest. Once that was done...
Q: How many times did you stab him?
A: I'll say I got him at least he got a he got a good hit I'd
say I got a good 15 in on him. At the most. I left cause he at that
time to me he wasn't breathing. I left him (inaudible), I left.
Q: You were the only one in there?
A: Yeah I was the only one. I left.
Q: Okay.
A: Then later on that evening though I seen him in the hallway and
they was sending bodies out, I seen him in the hallway.
Q: Was he in any different shape than when you saw him when you left
L-6, 60?
A: No, not not really. I ain't going to say that cause I
really didn't pay too much attention. I just hadn't seen the reason
I notice him because he had on a certain kind of tennis shoes.
Q: What kind of tennis shoes?
#
A: They was they was black. What kind they was I can't recall but
they was black tennis shoes. Kind of new so first ones I'd seen in a
institution so that's how I could see who he was.
Q: So he had the same tennis shoes 'on when you saw him being carried
out down at the end of the hallway or at least.
A: He was in the hallway he had the tennis shoes on. Now if they
wasn't on his feet when he got out there then I don't what happened to
them, you know what I'm saying?
Q: Did you hit him in the head at any time?
A: No, I didn't Jiit him I tried to hit him but I missed.
Q: Okay but as far as you know he was not hit in the head?
A: Not by me.
Q: Not by you.
A: That's all I can say.
Q: All you did is you hit him, knocked him down and you stabbed him
about 15 times in the torso area.
A: Yeah and I left.
Q: And you used this uh piece of steel that was flat, about 12 inches
long how wide was it?
A: About that wide?
Q: Okay, you're giving me about an inch wide?
A: Yeah, bout that wide.
Q: And about an eighth of an inch thick or a quarter of an inch thick?
Okay, do you know where it came from?
A: No. I knew it was a pretty (inaudible), it was a piece of weapon
and there was a riot going on so T took it.
Q: You found it somewhere or somebody give...
A: It was given to me.
Q: Okay, did someone tell you to go in there and get Depina?
A: No, I just heard. Heard it. Heard about it.
Q: You heard he was a snitch...
A: Heard he was a snitch and I heard some guys already
somebody was already planning on getting him anyway, right?
Q: Okay. How soon into the riot did this happen?
A: Between 3:15 and 4:00.
Q: You remembered the time?
A: About that time because when I come in the building cause I was on
the rec yard. I come in the building, I come in the building when I
seen it jumping off, I come in the building and at that time it was
about no later than about going on about 3:00 at the time. Things
happened so fast, like I say I give or take about an hour. I give or
take about an hour. I'd say it was between 3:15 to 4:00.
Q: Somewhere between 3:15 and 4:00 is when you went in and killed
Darrell Depina?
A: Yeah, about that thick.
Q: Was it flat?
A: Yeah, it was flat.
Q: Did it have a point on it?
A: Yeah, it had a point on it. It was given to me, I didn't make it
myself though...
Q: Okay, it was given to you.
A: It was given to me. And, uh, I picked up me a baseball bat, a metal
I say aluminum baseball bat. Okay? I went in there, I went in there
just the first thing I did was I hit him with a baseball bat.
Q: Where did you hit him?
A: I tried to hit him in the head but I believe that I hit him in the
shoulder, I believe I missed the head.
Q: Go ahead.
A: So I tried to take his head off but I couldn't do it, so I must
have hit him in the shoulder.
Q: Was he fighting back in any way?
A: Yeah, he tried to fight back and I just missed went to stabbing
him.
Q: Did you knock him down when you hit him with the ball bat?
A: No, I didn't knock him down, he, jumped up under the bed.
Q: He went under the bed?
A: He run up under the bed.
Q: Was he in there by himself?
A: He was in there by himself.
CASE #900-1500-93 TAPE A-190 INTERVIEW #1264
LEGEND:
Q: Tpr. J. W. Fleming
A: Inmate Aaron Jefferson *
?'
\
Q: Today's date is June 23, 1994. It is 3:56 in the afternoon. I'm
Trooper J. W. Fleming of the Ohio State Highway Patrol. We're at the
Mansfield Correctional Facility Segregation Area. In the room with me
is AARON JEFFERSON, inmate #230-397. fs that right Aaron?
A: Yes.
Q: You go by Aaron?
A: I go by A.J.
Q: A.J.?
A: A.J. but my Muslim name is Najeem.
Q: Your what name?
A: Muslim name. It's Najeem.
Q: Can you spell that?
A: Na-jeem.
Q: Okay. I received a kite which is an institutional informational
letter. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: From you, dated June**22nd, 1994. I got that this morning. And you
sent it to me and in that you're saying, "I would like to speak with
you about the riot at S.O.C.F.".
A: Yes.
Q: You wrote this yourself?
A: Yes.
Q: Was did anybody coerce you into writing this?
A: No.
Q: "What I'm saying, there were a few murders done that I done and I
would like to speak with you about them. Thanks." And then you signed
it, Mr. Aaron Jefferson.
A: Yes.
Q: That's you that wrote that?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Now before we get started, I asked you just a couple
questions earlier before I turned the tape on as far as prior
convictions and you're spending 4-15 for robbery from Cuyahoga County.
A: Yes.
Q: And you've been in the prison system on that particular charge
since 1990.
A: Yes.
Q: And prior to that you had an auto theft where you spent a year and
a half at the Old O.S.R.
A: Yes.
Q: You had mentioned something about your attorney earlier when I
asked you about coming down here and talking to me. Would you like to
explain why you do not wish your attorney present or you do wish to
have your attorney present the appointed attorney?
A: Well, at this time I would like him to be here, right? But I feel
this has to be resolved and truthfully I don't have the time to be
waiting on him to come down here or get down here when he wants to get
down here. I need him like right now, you know A.S.A.P.^ Since that
can't be done, then I'll deal with it right now as go on and you know
sometime in the near future, you know, we get him...
Q: Well, before we go any farther, we are bound by certain rules also.
And for you to use the excuse, and I say "excuse", that may not be an
excuse but for you to use the excuse that yes yo\i would like to
have your attorney here before questions,* especially since you're
going to admit to some murders and you say you can't get him down here
A.S.A.P., I don't know how good or how well that's going to be taken
by people later on. Because, yeah, we could probably get an attorney
here. And if you want to talk with an attorney present, you state that
now and we'll not go any farther. We will get an attorney here for
you.
A: No, I no.
Q: You don't want one?
A: No. I deal with that later on.
Q: What do you mean, "You'll deal with it later on"?
A: I'm saying when it's time for me to really have one, then
I'll have one. I don't think I need him here right now for what I have
to say.
Q: Okay, so I'm going to advise you of your rights.
A: Uh, huh.
Q: Do you understand you have the right to remain silent?
A: Yes.
Q: Anything you say can be used in court?
A: Yes.
Q: So if you don't want to tell me something, I can't dig it out of
you, so if you want to continue talking about whatever then that's
whatever you tell me is going to be used in court.
Yes.
You understand that?
Yes.
You have the right to a lawyer which, again, you said that right now
you want to talk without a lawyer?
Yes.
There was one appointed to you by early on after the riot, is that
correct?
Yes.
Do you know h^is name?
Clayton P. Olstein (phonetic).
Have you had correspondence with him?
At the early stage, yeah.
Q: When's the last you've talked to him?
A: (Long pause).
Q: Probably, correspondence wise or in person?
A: I spoke to him one time in person. That was the last time I seen
him. And correspondence was...
Q: When was that in person?
A: Maybe uh, in person was I'd give or take 7-8 months ago.
Q: You haven't talked to him for 7-8 months?
A: Yes.
Q: In person?
A: In person or by correspondence.
Q: Okay. Now once we've started into this interview, if you want to
stop all you need to do is say, "That's it. I'm done until I talk to
my attorney". And that will be the end of the interview.
A: Uh, huh.
Q: Do you understand all the rights?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay, so you do want to talk to me?
A: Yes.
, Q: Okay. You indicated also that you were a, uh, B.G.D. member.
A: Yes.
Q: And your rank, if there was such, or your position in the B.G.D.
was more of an enforcer...we have an interview...
Another Voice: Tpr. Fleming, (inaudible) on the phone. What's that
number there?
Q: Okay, I'm going^to shut this off for a second. (TAPE TURNED OFF).
Okay, we're back on tape. We were off for about 2-3 minutes for an
interruption, phone call. Now you asked me a question while we were
off tape and what was that again?
A: I was asking that once this is - once we've done with
discussions and statements and whatever, what do you do with it
where do you go with it?
Q: Where I go with it is to the prosecutor, uh, Mark Piepmeier who is
handling the case at S.O.C.F. or one of his assistants, Bill Breyer
one of those particular people down there. This is presented to him.
He gets the whole thing. He makes the decisions if there's any
decisions to be made. So, are you asking for anything? Do you want
anything?
A: As I said before, before the tape was played that all I'm asking is
that on these particular cases that I'm going to talk about that the
guys that's being charged with them, you know what I'm saying, be left
alone because they didn't do it. See what I'm saying?
Q: What you're trying to tell me is there are certain people that are
charged with incidents, crimes, that occurred at S.O.C.F. that you
know for a fact were not involved in it...
A: Yes. Yes.
Q: And your reason for coming forward to us now is to clear their
name?
A: Yes. I mean, I I could have just sat on back and just
let it go, right? I could have went on sat back and let it go and
whoever was charged would be charged and whatever happened would have
happened and that would have been it. I could have did it that way.
But, no, that's not the type of individual I am, right? You know what
I'm saying? I did it and I don't have no problem admitting that I did
it, right? I guess if I didn't like the person or you know what I'm
saying, didn't care, yeah, I could have said "Okay, yeah, well.you
know, oh man I'm so sorry for you" and just walked on about my
business.
Q: How much education have you had?
A: All the way through the 12th.
Q: You graduated high school?
A: Nope. *
4, .
Q: You did not graduate but you went through high school?
A: Yeah, I went through high school.
Q: Okay, you under any medication now?
A: No.
Q: So you're doing this of your own free will and understand what
you're telling us?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay, as I mentioned before you're saying "a few murders" and there
were a few down there, and you're going to admit from what your kite
says, you're going to admit to being involved in, participating,
ordering, whatever the case might be and what I'd like you to do is to
just start wherever you want to start you can make it as brief,
you can make it as detailed but you continue and whichever one you
start with, tell me everything you want to tell me about that one
before you go on to the next one, okay?
A: Okay, well one I'm going to start with a guy I didn't know
personally, like I say I'd just come out to population a week before
the riot situation at S.O.C.F. occurred so me knowing him personally,
no. But it was a guy named Darrell Depina. Darrell Depina. Uh, the
best way I can describe this guy is 1) I knew he worked in C corridor
where the Captain's office was and around where the commissary. He was
a porter, he was sweeping and mopping in that corridor. Every now and
then sometimes you see him with a a like a wild looking beard,
scraggly looking beard.
Q: Okay, we know who Darrell Depina is. Do you want to admit to that
particular murder? And how it happened?
A: I'm going to
Q: Or do you want to lead up to it with something elseT]>
A: I'm Darrell Depina. It occurred, it took place in L-6, cell 60.
Q: L-6, 60?
A: Yes. Uh, I heard like I said, I heard through the grape vine that
he was a snitch, institution police or whatever you like to call it.
And, uh, they said that, uh, he had to go. We was told that he had to
go.
Q: Now who said that?
*-
A: I just heard. I ain't going to say who said it. I heard that he had
to go.
Q: Let me ask you one question before we go any further. Have you been
charged with anything out of the Lucasville riot as yet?
A: Well, not yet.
Q: Okay, you've not yet been served with any indictments?
A: No, not yet.
Q: You say, "not yet".
A: Not yet.
Q: Okay. Tell us about Darrell Depina.
A: Okay, he was doing, like I say in L-6, cell 60, you know
what I'm saying? I was told that he was a snitch, you know what I'm
saying? A tattle-tailer, he liked to talk to much to the wrong people.
So I went in there...
Q: Were you alone?
A: Yeah. By myself. Went in there and I just took care of my business,
you know what I'm saying? I ain't going to go too far into detail as
how I did it.
Q: I want you to go into detail.
A: I went in there, I had a (inaudible) - institution knife, a shank.
An institutional knife.
Q: What was it made of?
A: Metal.
Q: Okay, what did it look like?
A: It was I got these handcuffs ,on so I can't really tell you.
Q: Approximately how big?
A: I'd say, I'd say about that big.
Q: And you're measuring out at least 12 inches.
A: I'm saying that's about 12 inches I'd give or take it was a
pretty *long piece of steel. I didn't make it.
Q: Was it flat?
A: It was, it was like maybe about that thick?
Q: And you're showing me about a quarter of an inch thick.
Q: Which shoulder did you get?
A: It would be the left because it was coming L 60, cell 60
standing, it would be left.
Q: Now where was Darrell Depina when you went in his cell?
A: It was about about four feet from^standing from the window.
Q: Was he facing you?
A: No, not he wasn't facing me, he was facing the bed. He
was in the process of doing some packing or doing something. He had a
lot of stuff on the bed that I know...
Q: He was standing there?
A: Yeah, he was standing taking care of whatever he was doing.
Q: Okay, so you went in with the ball bat...
A: Yeah, went in with the ball bat cause the door was already open.
Q: Okay, hit him he went down...
A: Hit him, swung at his head, he duckted [sic] I missed the head, I
did miss the head. I got the shoulder somewhat and he went down under
the bed.
Q: Okay, then what happened?
A: Then what I did I grabbed the bed, tilted the bed straight up,
tilted the bed straight up from the end straight up and pushed it
towards the wall.
Q: So you put it on it's end?
A: Yeah, put it on it's end standing it up straight up. I went at
him and started stabbing him.
Q: Now where did you stab*him?
». A: I stabbed him in the mid-section.
Q: In the back, or in the front?
A: Mid-section right here.
Q: In the front.
A: I believe I got him a couple times in the chest, if I ain't
mistaken I believe I did get him in the chest. Once that was done...
Q: How many times did you stab him?
A: I'll say I got him at least he got a he got a good hit I'd
say I got a good 15 in on him. At the most. I left cause he at that
time to me he wasn't breathing. I left him (inaudible), I left.
Q: You were the only one in there?
A: Yeah I was the only one. I left.
Q: Okay.
A: Then later on that evening though I seen him in the hallway and
they was sending bodies out, I seen him in the hallway.
Q: Was he in any different shape than when you saw him when you left
L-6, 60?
A: No, not not really. I ain't going to say that cause I
really didn't pay too much attention. I just hadn't seen the reason
I notice him because he had on a certain kind of tennis shoes.
Q: What kind of tennis shoes?
#
A: They was they was black. What kirid they was I can't recall but
they was black tennis shoes. Kind of new so first ones I'd seen in a
institution so that's how I could see who he was.
Q: So he had the same tennis shoes 'on when you saw him being carried
out down at the end of the hallway or at least.
A: He was in the hallway he had the tennis shoes on. Now if they
wasn't on his feet when he got out there then I don't what happened to
them, you know what I'm saying?
Q: Did you hit him in the head at any time?
A: No, I didn't Jiit him I tried to hit him but I missed.
Q: Okay but as far as you know he was not hit in the head?
A: Not by me.
Q: Not by you.
A: That's all I can say.
Q: All you did is you hit him, knocked him down and you stabbed him
about 15 times in the torso area.
A: Yeah and I left.
Q: And you used this uh piece of steel that was flat, about 12 inches
long how wide was it?
A: About that wide?
Q: Okay, you're giving me about an inch wide?
A: Yeah, bout that wide.
Q: And about an eighth of an inch thick or a quarter of an inch thick?
Okay, do you know where it came from?
A: No. I knew it was a pretty (inaudible), it was a piece of weapon
and there was a riot going on so T took it.
Q: You found it somewhere or somebody give...
A: It was given to me.
Q: Okay, did someone tell you to go in there and get Depina?
A: No, I just heard. Heard it. Heard about it.
Q: You heard he was a snitch...
A: Heard he was a snitch and I heard some guys already
somebody was already planning on getting him anyway, right?
Q: Okay. How soon into the riot did this happen?
A: Between 3:15 and 4:00.
Q: You remembered the time?
A: About that time because when I come in the building cause I was on
the rec yard. I come in the building, I come in the building when I
seen it jumping off, I come in the building and at that time it was
about no later than about going on about 3:00 at the time. Things
happened so fast, like I say I give or take about an hour. I give or
take about an hour. I'd say it was between 3:15 to 4:00.
Q: Somewhere between 3:15 and 4:00 is when you went in and killed
Darrell Depina?
A: Yeah, about that thick.
Q: Was it flat?
A: Yeah, it was flat.
Q: Did it have a point on it?
A: Yeah, it had a point on it. It was given to me, I didn't make it
myself though...
Q: Okay, it was given to you.
A: It was given to me. And, uh, I picked up me a baseball bat, a metal
I say aluminum baseball bat. Okay? I went in there, I went in there
just the first thing I did was I hit him with a baseball bat.
Q: Where did you hit him?
A: I tried to hit him in the head but I believe that I hit him in the
shoulder, I believe I missed the head.
Q: Go ahead.
A: So I tried to take his head off but I couldn't do it, so I must
have hit him in the shoulder.
Q: Was he fighting back in any way?
A: Yeah, he tried to fight back and I just missed went to stabbing
him.
Q: Did you knock him down when you hit him with the ball bat?
A: No, I didn't knock him down, he,jumped up under the bed.
Q: He went under the bed?
A: He run up under the bed.
Q: Was he in there by himself?
A: He was in there by himself.
\ *
Q: Okay, so you^hit him once with a ball bat...
A: Hit him once with a ball bat.
Q: ...and you was aiming for his head...
A: Aiming for the head and I missed him, got his shoulder, he ducked
up under the bed.
A: Yeah, that's when that's when a lot, or most of the killings
happened happened around between that time.
Q: Okay, do you want to tell me anything more about Darrell?
A: That's about all I can tell. I didn't really know the guy. I knew,
like I said, he was about 5'8" 5'8" to 5'11"; he weighed maybe 150
to 160 pounds, you know what I'm saying?
Q: Okay, did he live in L-6, 60?
A: I live in L-6 and I never I had never seen the dude in
there. I seen him I remember seeing him in the hallway a couple of
times before the riot. I lived in L-6, cell 24 matter of fact.
Q: How did you know he was in L-6, 60 then?
A: Like I said I heard the rumor that some guys was other peoples
was going to hit him. And they was talking about what cell he was in
so I sent straight to the cell. All I heard he was a snitch and he was
in L-6, cell 60 and that's all I needed to know and that's where I
went.
Q: And you done this on your own?
A: Done this on my own accord.
Q: Nobody told you to do it?
A: Nope.
Q: Okay, that's Darrell Depina. Now what might happen here is you may
be questioned by one of the investigators that's handling this
particular case. Are you willing to do that?
A: Uh, huh.
Q: That's more familiar with the case than what I am?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay.
A: Uh, some other one. I^m going to tell you like this there's
realty three. There's one that I'm not going to speak about at this
time, now that's the one I ain't going to speak about until my lawyer
is present.
Q: Why's that? If you're going to tell me about all these other
murders, why are you going to save one?
Q: Okay, so you hit him once with a ball bat...
A: Hit him once with a ball bat.
Q: ...and you was aiming for his head...
A: Aiming for the head and I missed him, got his shoulder, he ducked
up under the bed.
A: Yeah, that's when that's when a lot, or most of the killings
happened happened around between that time.
Q: Okay, do you want to tell me anything more about Darrell?
A: That's about all I can tell. I didn't really know the guy. I knew,
like I said, he was about 5'8" 5'8" to 5'11"; he weighed maybe 150
to 160 pounds, you know what I'm saying?
Q: Okay, did he live in L-6, 60?
A: I live in L-6 and I never I had never seen the dude in
there. I seen him I remember seeing him in the hallway a couple of
times before the riot. I lived in L-6, cell 24 matter of fact.
Q: How did you know he was in L-6, 60 then?
A: Like I said I heard the rumor that some guys was other peoples
was going to hit him. And they was talking about what cell he was in
so I sent straight to the cell. All I heard he was a snitch and he was
in L-6, cell 60 and that's all I needed to know and that's where I
went.
Q: And you done this on your own?
A: Done this on my own accord.
Q: Nobody told you to do it?
A: Nope.
Q: Okay, that's Darrell Depina. Now what might happen here is you may
be questioned by one of the investigators that's handling this
particular case. Are you willing to do that?
A: Uh, huh.
Q: That's more familiar with the case than what I am?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay.
A: Uh, some other one. I^m going to tell you like this there's
realty three. There's one that I'm not going to speak about at this
time, now that's the one I ain't going to speak about until my lawyer
is present.
Q: Why's that? If you're going to tell me about all these other
murders, why are you going to save one?
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